alexseanchai | (no subject)

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religion

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I'm worldbuilding what might fairly be described as a genderbent, racebent Supernatural in which nobody gets fridged and the creative force behind the project knows what 'social justice' means. (So, not very like Supernatural at all. Le sigh.) I'm currently trying to figure out whether the storyverse is theistic (Christian style, as I wish to play with angels and know the Christian mythos best), theistic (American Gods style, which does not preclude playing with angels), or atheistic (in which case, where did the angels come from?). I'm certain that my four most important characters have at least six different opinions on this, and somewhere in the course of the story they're going to find out who's right. So, in the interest of solving this mystery and figuring out what happens after, a survey:

What is your religious identity? I don't need more detail than 'agnostic', 'atheist', 'monotheist', 'polytheist', or the like, and if theist then the broadest term that accurately describes you (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Pagan, Hellenic Reconstructionist, what have you), but anything you want to tell me is welcome.

If you're sure of how many gods there are, whatever number you think that is, what would convince you that there are multiple gods when you thought one or none, or that there is only one when you thought multiple or none, or that there are none when you thought at least one? If you're agnostic, what would make you sure of the number of gods, whether that number is zero, one, or multiple?

If you were so convinced, what would you do?

If some degree of publicity is necessary to convince you (which I know is true of at least some people, who say that if it can't be verified scientifically then it's not sufficiently convincing), what do you think the other witnesses, and anyone who heard about the incident from them or from you, would do?

As always, anon comments are on but screened. My usual procedure is to unscreen anything that isn't spam; for this survey, I will unscreen only those anon comments that say I'm allowed to unscreen them. If you're commenting anonymously because you have neither a Dreamwidth nor an OpenID account and you don't care to create a DW account (fyi free DW accounts don't presently require invites), rather than because you don't want me or spectators to know who you are, please identify yourself.

Thank you!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Anonning because I feel exposed tonight but feel free to unscreen: mystic polytheist whose entire faith is based on unverified (that is, not in any accepted religious text/myth-structure/whatever) personal gnosis. I believe in my gods and spirits and other entities because I experience them.

However, the result tends to end up with a very different take on god(s) than is standard - just because something's a god doesn't mean I owe it anything, just because something's a god doesn't mean it's not an asshole, and just because something's a god (or even created the universe) doesn't give it the right to do whatever it wants. I work with Mine because for various reasons, they've earned my love and devotion and trust; I've also informed a large number of powers that if they don't keep the hell away from me I will go ballistic and also one of Mine will flip. So.

(I don't match the American Gods style polytheism because I don't believe we necessarily create gods; we create some powers, we give others shapes, and others could give a flying rat's ass what we think of them.)

Convincing me otherwise would involve something on the level of convincing me that I actually live in the Matrix (that is, that all my OTHER experience of my entire life is also wrong). It would also be shattering on the same level - the same level as if I suddenly discovered my mother and father and sisters were actually figments of my imagination and never really existed at all. So I'd react pretty badly to it.

I can also say I personally dislike stories where I get told by the narrative who's "right" about a religious issue. It drives a wedge between me/my world and the world of the story, at least if there was genuine doubt before hand - it feels like a "ner, ner, gotcha" sort of thing. It's less so if the "real" powers are established at the beginning or whatever, but still.

Thank you.

Do you think it would be possible for me to write this story so that you wouldn't dislike it, or at least not for the reason you gave, while still having the characters on a journey of discovery such that the readers don't know the destination until the characters get there?

I think so, if the issue were less "and then the narrative informed the world it was So" and more "and then the characters were convinced that it was so".

Does that difference make sense? It's sort of a matter of perspective. American Gods as an example: we are told by the narrative how this universe works. People make gods. No question, no mystery, no nothing. This is the rule of this fictional universe, and if you want to work in it, you have to accept that rule or go totally counter-canon.

Conversely if everything is rooted in the characters' perceptions, it becomes about what they choose to believe or don't choose to believe. And you can also definitely reveal a power that's a source of the particular conflict they're dealing with without . . . setting in stone the workings of the universe.

(And, of course: you don't have to write to please me! It's just a thing I have. *wry!* I'm sure there are people out there who have the opposite issue and hate any kind of fuzziness.)

Good to know, and I will keep this in mind. Thank you.

You might want to hunt down CS Lewis' description of his conversion event, seeing as it took him from pretty vehement atheist to pretty vocal believer - noting that it may be aggravating to read for an atheist (I find it so), but it pretty much describes the switch you're describing here at least in one direction.

Will do, thank you.

Culturally, (and actively) Christian, ELCA.

In my private beliefs, much more of a mixed bag. On number, though, I would have to say that I believe that when you get to those levels of power/knowledge/reality, number and individuality aren't concepts that have meaning the way they do for us. So zero, one, and multiple could all be true (and all be not-true) at once (not that simultaneity has a simple meaning at that level either.) Even standard Christian doctrine takes as fundamental the Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity, and while I don't necessarily take that particular version as the only true one, I would say that for me to accept as a capital-G God I would expect that question to not have a straight or simple answer.

As for proof: well, again, partly coming from my Christian background (where there's this thread in the New Testament that true God is not something that can or should be subject to proof, and that if a god or prophet is leaning heavily on hard evidence they are probably a false prophet), there isn't really anything proofwise that would convince me of a capital-G god? I think that someone who changes the world around them (preferably for the better!) just by being in it and being themself, someone people have faith in who is worthy of that faith, is all we need of God anyway. And that true faith in true Godhood is almost always something that comes from the self, that can't really be forced by external factors.

For more general supernatural stuff, and for creatures-of-greater-than-Earthly-powers who I might be willing to call gods if they really wanted me to, they would have to pass the JREF challenge. If they can't be bothered to do that, then I can't be bothered to pay attention to any of their other attempts at 'proof'. It's not like the JREF challenge is that difficult, if you really do have supernatural powers, and you can always give the money back if it's below your godly notice. (Even the people in the skeptical community who really dislike JREF in general have never that I've seen criticized the validity and impartiality of the Challenge.) Once they've won the challenge, I'll consider further proofs.

As for what other people will do -- well, I dunno, there are plenty of RL examples of mass religious manifestations! Probably the same as for any given manifestation of the Virgin or statue that drinks milk or whatever. People who are predisposed to believe would believe even more loudly, people predisposed not to believe would loudly express all their reasons not to, people who are withholding judgement would talk about what more they want to see before they decide, and the vast majority of people (regardless of what they believe) would continue their lives as before, just with some slightly louder lunch conversations for awhile. Even passing the JREF challenge or similar impeccable scientific evidence wouldn't change the lives of more than a small group of science aficionados; just look at global warming and evolution.

I think to have something that really changed a lot of folks' minds on a passionate level you would have to have something that *directly* affected their lives - and I don't mean just witnessing an event, I mean threatening their routines and livelihoods. But even then, mostly you're just giving more people a reason to want to believe. Or you'd have to do it slowly over the course of a generation.

I think for me, part of what makes God is being without limit, and any attempt by a story-world to define what is or isn't God is going to make me start rolling my eyes - because wherever you draw your lines, Godness is more than that (and also less than that.) I think leaving the basic question open, or at least confusing as shit, is the only way that works for me.

That doesn't preclude having many many lesser Powers and gods and angels, squabbling around though. (and Gods too, because God is many, and all of the lesser Powers are God too, even the false ones that lie, because God is all things.)

*nodnod* Thank you.

Agnostic. God is too big and complex for humanity to understand and perceive and doesn't particularly value humanity any more than a particularly awesome stone arch on mars (or Gamma Centuri B). Humans often worship facets of God generally inspired by a insightful and charismatic person who could see a bit more of it than others but still usually projected their own self and era into it.

You might find this article useful or interesting too http://gamingaswomen.com/posts/2012/06/creating-gods-a-bottom-up-approach/.

Eh forgot to fully answer and say you could unscreen my previous response.

Convincing me that something/someone was God would be challenging though I could be convinced that something was within the typical definition of God or Gods but was a powerful entity of explained sort fairly easily. If the God was congruent with my morality I would aid/serve its goals or oppose it if I found it morally repugnant.

I would need people I personally trusted to have witnessed whatever was sufficiently compelling.

Thank you.

"What is your religious identity? I don't need more detail than 'agnostic', 'atheist', 'monotheist', 'polytheist', or the like, and if theist then the broadest term that accurately describes you (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Pagan, Hellenic Reconstructionist, what have you), but anything you want to tell me is welcome."

Ponytheistic. I believe that the goddesses Celestia and Luna raise the Sun and the Moon and Twilight Sparkle is their prophet.

"If you're sure of how many gods there are, whatever number you think that is, what would convince you that there are multiple gods when you thought one or none, or that there is only one when you thought multiple or none, or that there are none when you thought at least one? If you're agnostic, what would make you sure of the number of gods, whether that number is zero, one, or multiple?"

That would depend on what revisions/retcons the MLP:FiM writers make to the show over the course of it's run. The fewer, the better; of course; but I'm not going to be doctrinaire about the number of deities that (might) show up.

"If you were so convinced, what would you do?"

Meh. Just include any new deities into the Ponytheon I suppose.

"If some degree of publicity is necessary to convince you (which I know is true of at least some people, who say that if it can't be verified scientifically then it's not sufficiently convincing), what do you think the other witnesses, and anyone who heard about the incident from them or from you, would do?"

Don't know. Don't care. If someone else wanted to become a Ponytheist, that's fine with me; but I'd rather they keep it to themselves. This is a religion that I won't be trying to get anyone else to join anytime soon.

I am not always good at telling serious from satire; which is this?

Thank you in either event.

"I am not always good at telling serious from satire; which is this?"

Admittedly, a bit of both. I'm so tired of RTCs trying to pass off an obviously mostly-mythological story* as fact. So I decided that I'd use the MLP:FiM mythology shown in the first two episodes as the basis for a "Flying Spaghetti Monster"-style religion. But as I watched the show I noticed that Princess Celestia is not only a political and governmental leader to her ponies, she's also a *moral* leader to them as well -- and, arguably, probably a far *better* one than the Hebrew God or Christian God were/are to His followers.

Also, both Celestia and Luna have come represent certain ideals to me: i.e. Patience, Nobility, Leadership, a sense of Humor, Redemption, The ability to forgive, etc.

Another plus (in my eyes, at least) is that both of them are *flawed* -- and the show acknowledges this! (i.e. Celestia loses her temper over Twilight's antics in the episode "Lesson Zero". But she forgives Twilight; and when the other ponies admit that they didn't listen to her concerns, she turns it into a "teachable moment" by assigning them to write letters to her as well. Also, she actually *loses* her spell duel with Queen Chrysalis in the Season 2 ender and winds up a prisoner, and the Mane 6 have to rescue *her!*)

So, yeah; a "religion" based on an animated TV show ostensibly meant for 5-to-11-year-old girls may sound a bit (okay, *more* than a bit) facetious, but it's premise can't be any more wild than what's found in the Bible.

*Granted, there's probably a bit of actual history mixed in; but it can be hard to tell from all the Supernatural stuff that goes on.

Coming across from Slacktivist - your wish is my command.

I am an atheist. Technically, I suppose I'm an Epicurean; I don't logically exclude the existence of gods but I assume that any such thing would both be incomprehensible to humans and entirely uninterested in human affairs. In this framework the actual number of gods may be anything between zero and infinity, but the question is uninteresting because it's unanswerable. For all practical purposes, zero. (For what it's worth I profoundly dislike Richard Dawkins.)

What would convince me of the existence of an active, interventionist god would be to observe repeated and unconnected gross violations of causality, such that it would be impossible to develop any mathematical, logical or scientific model which would consistently accommodate them (I would, I accept, have to rely on working physicists, mathematicians, etc. to make the call on this, as I'm not qualified to.) Anything less than that, and as far as I'm concerned we're looking at natural forces we don't understand yet.

Supposing a series of events which conforms to these criteria, what would convince me of the existence of any specific number of gods? Nothing. Even if, say, seven plausibly divine looking things appeared in front of me and said, "Hi, we're it", I wouldn't feel there was any reason to suppose there were seven gods rather than one, or an infinite, or possibly changeable, number. Anything that can convince me of the existence of active gods, can also make a single entity look like seven, or seven billion, and likewise an infinite number of such entities can appear as a finite number. We're talking about gods here, right? Why would they do such a thing? I have no idea; they're gods or it's a god. It/they have their own agenda.

tl;dr. None or some, the value of "some" being unknowable in principle.

Good luck with the book. Keep us posted on progress.

christopher_young

*nods* Thank you.

I'm a Jewish agnostic. That means I don't know whether there's a higher power or not, and I think that if there is one it's probably not observable from inside the universe. I certainly don't believe in an interventionist God. However, I find the ethical framework of Judaism resonates with me, and the rituals are comforting.

I also have some fairly complicated thoughts regarding belief. Basically, I think lack of definite knowledge is a necessary condition of belief: you can't *believe* in a fact. Facts are facts whether you believe in them or not. If God is real, he does not require my belief to exist. If I got proof of his existence, I wouldn't start believing in him-- I'd start *knowing* he existed, which is a different thing.

As to what kind of proof I would require, it would have to be pretty definite, and independently verifiable. Like, bolt-from-the-blue, voice-from-the-sky, local suspension of the laws of physics type stuff.

Hadn't thought of that, about belief. Thank you.

What is your religious identity?

Atheist, fairly confirmedly so.

If you're sure of how many gods there are, whatever number you think that is, what would convince you that there are multiple gods when you thought one or none, or that there is only one when you thought multiple or none, or that there are none when you thought at least one? If you're agnostic, what would make you sure of the number of gods, whether that number is zero, one, or multiple?

I think for me there's a distinction to be drawn between my own personal feelings and genuinely objective fact - in much the same way that I can dislike a movie but still be pretty sure it's a well-made and excellently-acted movie, I can understand varying personal feelings on the subject but still be pretty sure about the amount of solid objective evidence. I sometimes have major chest-squeezy feels about how freaking amazing the universe is, the sheer incredible age of the earth or the collective beauty of life, but there's a big step between that and a god or gods whose existence I would accept as absolute fact and, like, argue with people about because I'm that sure it's objectively true.

I'm not actually sure what that would take - working out the line between "god" and "entity capable of shit I can't explain only because I don't yet understand the mechanisms involved" seems like it would be kind of tough, and in a universe where magic were real, I'd think it would be even tougher, because how could you be sure you wouldn't be capable of exactly the same feats if you just had enough power/knew the right stuff? And even then - this is actually making me think of the Q from Star Trek. I don't know what would make me use the word "god" with sincerity and reverence rather than as shorthand for - well, "entity capable of shit I can't explain only because I don't yet understand the mechanisms involved". I think maybe "god" carries with it connotations of deeper faith that I'm not sure I would ever quite match; even if something came up to me claiming to be YHWH and performed every feat God is ever described as accomplishing, and managed to convince me it had been around for thousands of years, such that it might indeed be what the Bible had been written about, I'm not sure that key underlying faith would be there.

If you were so convinced, what would you do?

... I have no idea. In a hypothetical scenario where I have that faith - which would presumably include the desire to do as a god or gods asked of me, particularly if I considered any claim to infallibility valid - I guess it would depend on what the god or gods wanted? D: I really don't know what that would be like. In the event that I remained my skeptical skepticky self, it would depend on the god or gods. Much like the anon above, I would attempt to act within my usual moral standards, although if there were multiple gods fighting with each other, or an all-powerful god with a master plan that I found morally objectionable, I'd probably have to spend a little while scared out of my mind before I'd have a shot at working out what I wanted to do about it.

If some degree of publicity is necessary to convince you (which I know is true of at least some people, who say that if it can't be verified scientifically then it's not sufficiently convincing), what do you think the other witnesses, and anyone who heard about the incident from them or from you, would do?

Haha, yes, I am that person in the parenthetical. :D I'd probably need something that I'd feel good asserting was not a hallucination - in a universe where magic were real and I knew it, though, that part would probably be easier, because hallucination would not necessarily be my default assumption. As for the rest, I guess it would depend on the witnesses and their own beliefs and opinions? I mean, some people would probably panic, some people would probably feel gloriously righteous, some people would probably think it was mass hysteria; it would depend on who they are, where it happened, and what it was.

By the way this project sounds like the best thing ever.

Thank you. And I do hope it turns out as awesome on paper as it is in my head...

Feel free to unscreen - I just can't get OpenID working on this computer. Fascinating questions!

I'm Christian, subset Reformed Protestant, culturally but not theologically aligned with Calvinism. So definitely a one-god kind of guy. I'm also from a very cerebral spiritual tradition - my visiting Catholic friends are apt to remark, "This isn't a homily, it's a lecture!" - and I can't say I've had any mystical experiences, although I don't doubt that sort of thing is possible.

I'd say it would take a lot of convincing to change my beliefs on the polytheist end; I'd be skeptical of a physical Sign From Above I heard about on the news, for which I'd immediately seek a scientific explanation. More convincing would be a Vision or a Feeling - that indescribable sensation one has of being in the presence of a deity - or some supernatural sign that would be out of character for God (cruel, hedonistic, showy, etc.) but fits nicely within some other pantheon. A new holy book of equal power to the Bible would also work. It's difficult because Christianity is built to accommodate magicians, prophets, etc. Now that I think about it, it would be relatively easy to convince me that Yahweh is one of many deities but virtually impossible to sell me on, say, the Norse gods.

On the atheist end, I'd be looking for some incontrovertible historical evidence - say, the tomb of Jesus, or records of Paul killed by bandits on a lonely highway in Phrygia before he could have written his letters. I could also imagine a machine/drug that reproduces the state of being thought to be created by God, although that's nowhere near as ironclad.

I expect a lot less to happen as a result than is commonly supposed. The papers and the comedians will be full of worried commentary, people will have a vague sense of dread as their belief systems are taken away and an enforced black humor or fake cheerfulness to power through it (similar to what we had when there was a legitimate nuclear threat), basically some additional existential dread but few if any changes to the day-to-day structure of our lives. It's not like God tells me which brand of peanut butter to buy as it is. Most religious groups I think would stay as they were, with ever more elaborate explanations for why they are still right. Also expect a big touchy-feely piece in the New York Times about the troubles of, say, the local pagans haplessly coping with an influx of hundreds of new members now that it's been revealed they were right all along.

Anon b/c I don't have an OpenID or Dreamwidth account; my usual posting handle online is Heqit. I mostly lurk at Slacktivist, but have posted occasionally at Ana Mardoll's Ramblings. You can unscreen this comment.

I am an atheist. In order to be convinced that any god or gods exist I would probably need multiple public appearances of said gods being godly somehow, with investigations by skeptic societies that do not uncover any evidence of fraud or trickery. A personal appearance of the god(s) in my life might also be necessary, but would not be sufficient by itself. (I might distrust my state of mind, or suspect someone of hoaxing me, and not have the means to verify the experience.) People whom I know well, trust, and love saying that they have experienced these gods and know that they are truly gods would NOT convince me.

Even with all that, I might become convinced that these entities exist, and perhaps even are who they say they are, but I would not necessarily agree to worship them. Make practical bargains with, yes; worship, no.

If I were involved in a public appearance of the god(s), I would expect (non-believing) people who heard about the incident but who did not witness it themselves to be curious and/or amazed if that sort of thing were still new, and either curious, jaded/dismissive, elated, or horrified (depending on their current beliefs) if divine appearances have become common. I don't think I would expect that hearing about a god's appearance would convert a non- or other-believer, unless the character in question was already established as being, well, credulous.

Hope that helps. If you have any questions about what I've said or if you just want to bounce world-building questions off of someone who's never seen Supernatural but who does have a Religious Studies degree (*g*), feel free to email me at [above username] at hotmail dot com.

Heqit

Thank you, for the offer as well as the information.

Jewish. Born and raised in a Jewish family, never felt a need to leave. I wouldn't bet on God's existence, though, whatever that bet would even mean.

I can't imagine thinking the lack of a god's existence could be proven. Isn't that part of why it's not a scientific question? Not disprovable? Proof -- of the existence of one or more -- is another question, and it comes down to this for me: What makes a being a god?

Let's imagine I was in the approximate shoes of Joan Girardi from Joan of Arcadia. Suppose God came up and started talking to me like in the pilot episode -- in my case, it'd probably be as a cute girl rather than a guy, to get my attention. So at some point, she gives a monologue corresponding to the pilot's monologue on Joan's life and family history, as a demonstration of omniscience. And by the end, I'm seriously creeped out, and if I'm convinced there's no "mundane" means by which she could know some of the things she said, I'd have to conclude she had supernatural means available. Which doesn't mean she's omniscient; she could be a high-level telepath. Meeting other avatars later? Possibly a shapeshifter, possibly a member of an organization, possibly a hivemind.

Of course, the important thing to God in the show was that Joan followed His requests, if you'll pardon the gendered pronoun. And the first was to get a job at a particular bookstore; well, I'm trying to get a job anyway, and that's as good a place as any. After that, the most important thing would be that doing what He asked usually led to good things, which would suggest at the minimum some seriously high-level precognition. So I'd probably go along with them, though I'd still challenge and argue. It's right in the name "Israel" -- struggling with God. But I don't know if anything would convince me that I actually was, undeniably, dealing with the four-letter Abrahamic God, Hakadosh Baruch Hu, Harold be his name.

Same thing applies even to more physically impressive displays, public ones included. The Marvel Studios versions of Thor and Loki? "Sufficiently advanced aliens" with names and behaviors matching mythological figures, certainly; and if they have records indicating they were on Earth at the right time to produce those myths, then it's plausible that they did. You can even say with reasonable accuracy that they are the people in the myths, to at least the extent that Chuck Norris is the person Chuck Norris Facts speak of. Does that make them "gods"? Does that necessarily follow from the above? I have no idea how you'd answer that.

*nods* Thank you.

Muslim, although more focused on the inner, personal aspects, with little or no involvement in communal worship or community. I'm not sure the other questions make sense for me to answer, given that. (They seem to be meant for people who lean toward agnosticism or have no firm opinion, from what I could tell?)

Also, I have little or no knowledge of Supernatural, so my answer, complete or not, may be of limited relevance.

I am hoping for people who do have strong opinions on religion to answer, actually. Thank you, and it's certainly relevant!

Like http://elliemurasaki.dreamwidth.org/382795.html?thread=1112651#cmt1112651, my beliefs are borne of mind experience, so the result would be mind-shattering (or perhaps world-shattering) as well, since it would require or lead me to question pretty much everything I know (or believe I know).

As to what it would take to convince me I was wrong (short of dying and facing God, or not facing God as the case may be): I don't think *anything* could convince me God doesn't exist. (Can you prove to me you don't exist?). As to deities (objects/targets of worship) other than God, it would basically take God telling me to worship the FSM (or who/whatever) on alternate days for anything of the kind to happen, and even then I would probably need some convincing that it is indeed God and not some kind of hallucination, delusion, or wishful thinking.

Does that make any sense?

Quite a lot. Thank you.

Wandering over now that the kids are in bed and I have a bit more time - I have a personal interest in conversion events/etc, and one of the things I've noticed is that most of them are inner, not outer. It's not what happens in the world, it's what happens in your head (or soul, if you like) that matters.

Because lets face it: someone could wipe out the sun or create life in front of you, and if you have no inner feeling or impulse, then that entity is no more than a highly powered alien. I'm thinking here of that slightly silly Avengers macro that goes around sometimes, with Steve Rogers on it saying "Personally knows two gods, still believes there's only one god." And, well, no - Steve knows two incredibly high-powered beings from another "realm" who happen to have been worshipped as gods in the past in his world. Someone else mentioned Q elsewhere, which is another example - just because he can bend time and space doesn't mean he's a god. It just means he has a lot of power.

Which is true both from the theist and atheist perspective: Steve Rogers is a theist, a Christian, and he still looks at the beings otherwise thought of as "gods" and goes "nope, just aliens with power"; most of the Trek context is pretty atheistic, and so everyone looks at Q as a high-powered alien.

So I think for a lot of people, it's an internal thing, not an external thing. It's what moves you and what you experience. And if that's the case, even angels in the sky saying "by the way, the Bible's totally true and YWH is alpha and omega and so on" after smiting down an army could easily still get a response of "bullshit."

(I'm playing with this idea in one of my own novels - because there are angels who will show up and say just that, while there are also other characters who go "oh yeah? my god says you're full of shit" who have also had a personal experience with said, and once again, everybody has to figure out who THEY believe.)

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

D'oh. I didn't notice having to give permission to unscreen my comment. Go ahead; it's the same IP address as this one.

Buddhist/polytheist/atheist-ish. Out of all religions, Buddhism is closest to my heart for various reasons, and polytheist/omnitheist doesn't feel accurate. I used to call myself an atheist, and I still am atheistic in a sense; I don't think gods, objectively speaking, exist, but I am also sure that any religion itself (separate from beliefs and opinions propagated by that religion) is not a lie. --To state things more clearly, I work off a Wittgenstein-style belief system: magical thinking (e.g. kissing the picture of a loved one, stabbing the picture of an enemy, praying to the rain god just before the rainy season) is fundamentally different from practical/non-magical thinking, and so you can't say that it is actually wrong in any sense.

So you could show me that all gods exist, and that would only add a different dimension to what I already think. (I would probably stop by religious institutions more often, because gods are probably like anyone else re: enjoying when people pay attention to them, and I like doing nice things for people.) You could show me that no gods exist, and that wouldn't change anything, because I place more importance on people's actions and beliefs than I do on objective reality.

I don't think anyone could convince me that only one god* existed, but if there was only one and it was a Christian god I would get incredibly angry. Because, generally, saying that the Christians are objectively right would mean that everyone else is objectively wrong, and considering just how often and how forcefully Christianity has been used as a tool of colonialism and imperialism . . . that would tick me off pretty badly. Then again, I know there is a way to work within the framework of a Christian world that does not exclude the possibility of non-Christian worlds, because Good Omens managed to do it fairly well. I think the key to this would be to specifically aim for a world that is Christian but not not Christian.

But if I did find out that I lived in a world that was specifically Christian rather than Islamic or Buddhist or Zoroastrian, I would probably try to destroy Christianity and/or the Christian God, because I have some considerable grudge against Christianity as an institution, despite being able to appreciate certain aspects of it. And I'm pretty sure I am not alone in this.

If you have time, and you haven't already, I would recommend reading Ludwig Wittgenstein's Remarks on Frazer's Golden Bough, because I really influenced my thoughts on the difference between religion and opinion, or magical thinking and objective reality, which sound like topics that would be useful to you.

*A complicated and loaded term in this case, because there is a difference between 'powerful being' and 'god', and I do think that the reality of one single god which is the focus of an established religion would be not only validating that one religion but also invalidating others. Which is a no-no for me.

Note to self, reread Good Omens. Thank you.

Oh, any excuse will do for that. :D

Oh, you can unscreen my comment from yesterday if you think it would help. I completely forgot about OK'ing it. If you don't want to, that's cool too.

christopher_young

I'm a Christian Unitarian Universalist. I believe that the soul of Jesus was something extraordinary. Whether I believe that it was actually a piece of God that chose to become human to walk the proverbial mile in our shoes to see why we weren't behaving, or was a highly developed human soul rather akin to a Bodhisattva varies from moment to moment.

I kind of lean towards the belief that all gods are one. The particular aspect of this god that I follow is the one that arises from early Christian belief -- a God who views all humans as equal and worthy of being loved. I disavow most of the stuff that happened after Christianity became the dominant religion of Rome. I also am nothing like a Biblical literalist.

I can't figure out why my OpenID thing isn't working, so I will post this anonymously. You may unscreen it.

Thank you.

Hi, I think I came across via my network, and it really made me think!

I am an atheist, but first and foremost I'm a humanist: I tend to think there are no gods, but I also believe that if there WERE gods I wouldn't worship or trust them. I believe really strongly that any being that demands worship doesn't deserve it (respect, gratitude, or fear, maybe. But not worship) I also have REAL ISSUES with the idea of objective Good and Evil, or that certain people are Sinners who Deserve To Be Punished. So it would be much harder to convince me about any god who you had to worship or you deserved to go to Hell than about little rock spirits or petulant greek gods causing trouble.

I would be inclined to interpret "proof" of the existence of gods as proof that I had become delusional or was misunderstanding the situation. But after a while, if the "delusions" didn't go away, I would probably decide to act as if I wasn't delusional since I had no other option.

I'm not sure what you mean by "god". I would be skeptical but not entirely closed to the idea of Very Strange events/powers/beings but would default to interpreting them as something nonsupernatural like unknown scientific principles, aliens etc. I would be deeply afraid of any being who actually called itself a god, even a seemingly benevolent egalitarian alien would bother me unless they did a lot of unambiguous good.

If it became obvious that the events/powers/beings really were supernatural I would accept it, I guess. How I'd react beyond that would depend on the specifics. I think the Christian God as described in the Bible is a douchebag and terrifying, and any human-construct gods/angels etc are likely to be pretty unfriendly to atheists (since their believers are) so they'd be terrifying too. I am imagining a feeling like when your least favourite political party gets voted into power. I used to be Christian and it made me miserable, I assume that being forced back into that worldview would be pretty unpleasant.

Also, on a meta level: a pagan friend of mine has this whole rant about how he thinks the American Gods style universe is overused in place of decent consistent worldbuilding. Personally I think it can be interesting, but it can go to some really dodgy places, eg subtly implying that Christianity or European religions are somehow better or more important than others, eg having the Christian God being the one who created the world, and the Christian Hell being the only one that exists. Is the American Jesus a caucasian blonde because so many people believe in him as that? How does the Christian God interact with the Jewish and Muslim ones? Are you incorporating Mormon and Catholic beliefs or just using Generic Protestantism? What are you implying about the Native American gods? Are you ignoring the global popularity of Hinduism etc?

Then again you did say you were using Supernatural as a how-not-to, which should help avoid these pitfalls :D

Thank you.

Then again you did say you were using Supernatural as a how-not-to, which should help avoid these pitfalls :D

Heh. Yes. If the end result bears any resemblance whatsoever to Supernatural's "Hammer of the Gods", I will be furious with myself.

I am fairly confident that I do not want to touch the afterlife, not in this story, so what I'm probably going to do is say that nobody's been there and back, not even gods or angels, so they're working off guesswork same as the rest of us, and some of them (like some of us) are convinced that there's no afterlife at all.

I think I may go with the idea that 'god' and 'angel' are two different names for the same order of being, it's just that self-identified angels and those who believe in them think 'god' means 'creator of the universe'. So most everybody identifying as an angel thinks anybody identifying as a god is arrogantly claiming a title they've no right to, and most everybody identifying as a god thinks anybody identifying as an angel is either stupid or self-delusive, and the creator (who, if asked, is not the Christian God no matter how many people confuse them, nor Mbombo nor Raven nor Tiamat, or else all the creator deities are different names for this one entity) would really rather be left alone to make more beetles please and thank you.

I'm definitely going to be sticking mostly to the Christian mythos--I know it best, and here in the USA it's the religion that needs turned on its head most--and I'll certainly do my best not to imply in the narrative that that makes Christianity the most important or most true religion, though some of the characters (being Christian) will believe that it is and say as much.

That sounds like a really great way to do things! You've got me all excited now. :D

Hmm. I'm never quite sure where I fall on this one. Agnostic?

I used to be a Christian, was raised that way, but over the last half-decade or so have sort of...hmm. I don't do any of the proper things one is supposed to do to be Christian, I'm not entirely sure that Jesus died for my sins, or even that the Christian God (or any gods, really) exists. I do still, reflexively, pray when in trouble, though I have taken to addressing "God, if she exists," or "the universe," or (most idiosyncratically) "Aiji-ma", which is a Cherryhverse sci-fi novel term meaning roughly "my leader, the centre of direction and identity." I am deeply fond of some portions of my tradition of origin, but once you start talking specific God-language-things, you lose me quite quickly.

If God exists, She is (to, ha, quote Paul) above all and in all and through all: the True Truth that underlies all existence, the Realest Real Thing, the Love at the heart of all that is. What the fuck that looks like, or should properly be called, or even if it's something one can separate out and call by a name or give a personality, I don't know. Indeed I don't know if it's best described as one god or many--if god is even the term.

I'm a SF&F fan, and often say that I'm either Minbari or follow the Valar from Tolkien.

The main difference that not believing very hard (or, ceasing to *try* terribly hard to believe) in the God I grew up with has made in my life is that I don't spend huge amounts of brain power worrying over whether I'm doing my religion right. I just get on with my life. So I'm not sure what would change, were I convinced a deity existed: I might just keep on the way I've been, or I might decide that I needed to devote some mental energy to that deity's cause. Don't know.

I am, however, supremely uninterested in the question of "Does God Exist?" I associate it most with endless fifty-page circular Internet arguments, full of more heat than light. I am an agnostic because I don't know, I don't believe anyone else truly knows, and I honestly most days don't care. God may or may not exist; humans certainly come up with all kinds of religions and philosophies that *do* exist. Let's talk about those! Those are interesting--what should we do, in this world?

tl;dr I'm a faintly-panentheist-flavoured agnostic, who's bored to death with "does God exist?" as a question.

Thank you. It's a relevant question for any story that's going to involve angels, I think, but yeah, day to day life, asking that question's pretty much a way to kill some time and maybe piss people off.

Hee, I realized halfway through my multiparagraph ramble that you were asking as a worldbuilding question. :D My thoughts on yaoi, etc. :P

If I were a character in a universe like Buffy or Supernatural, I think I'd be one of the people with a sort of pragmatic approach: do the stakes off vampires? OK, I'll use the stakes. Does holy water do it? OK, I'll get someone to bless the water, even if I don't believe in it (though I'd be quite fascinated to do some tests and find out if the effect can be replicated by something other than a religious ritual).

Angels would then function more or less like aliens, for plot purposes. Or do you mean that some people in your 'verse meet or see angels, and others don't think they exist?

Yeah, there's a Supernatural fic somewhere that's got this bit: "Do you believe in God?" "I believe in holy water."

A bunch of people are going to meet angels, actually. I think all the important people will be convinced they are what they say they are. (Eventually.) NPCs, probably not so much.

Who *is* that in your icon?

Mary Winchester, age eighteen.

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World-building survey.

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Re: World-building survey.

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Atheist Heqit is...Atheistic

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